Commerce Connect Podcast

Tomas Janu of Avast on the key to successful globalization and why free is anything but low value

November 05, 2019 Digital River Season 1 Episode 4
Commerce Connect Podcast
Tomas Janu of Avast on the key to successful globalization and why free is anything but low value
Chapters
Commerce Connect Podcast
Tomas Janu of Avast on the key to successful globalization and why free is anything but low value
Nov 05, 2019 Season 1 Episode 4
Digital River

Digital River connected with Avast's Director of Go Global & Ecommerce at our Commerce Connect event in London, which brought together some of the world's best ecommerce companies to learn more about how to build exceptional customer experiences. A self-described fan of the "hockey stick" chart, Tomas Janu offers key advice on how to create the best customer journey to win business in a new region. He also has an important tip for companies considering a freemium model. 

Show Notes Transcript

Digital River connected with Avast's Director of Go Global & Ecommerce at our Commerce Connect event in London, which brought together some of the world's best ecommerce companies to learn more about how to build exceptional customer experiences. A self-described fan of the "hockey stick" chart, Tomas Janu offers key advice on how to create the best customer journey to win business in a new region. He also has an important tip for companies considering a freemium model. 

Speaker 1:

Hi, I'm James Gagliardi along with Natalie Wires and Jason Nyhus. Between us, we have over 40 years of experience working in e-commerce technologies, but this isn't about us. This is commerce. Connect a podcast about people who are creating some of the best e-commerce experiences of our times. Listen on to hear for e-commerce visionaries as they look back on where they started, lessons they've learned that have gotten them where they are today and what they believe is the future of online shopping.

Speaker 2:

Hi, this is Jason Nyhus from Digital River.I am senior vice president of sales, marketing and partnerships. Today we are thrilled to be joined by Tomas, you know, from Avast software and Avast software is a disruptive force and security software. They really pioneered the freemium model and today you're going to hear from Tomas talking about how he organizes his growth teams to essentially execute a hyperlocal strategy to extract the most amount of growth possible from markets. And he shares a little bit about why he's so excited by hockey stick growth and some fun experiences he's had internally around it. Uh, today we're coming to you live from the commerce connect event here. The digital river is hosting with our partner PayPal here in the United Kingdom. And we're coming to you from the shard, which is the tallest building in the EU. As of the recording. Uh, I've got a feeling when it goes live, it'll be the tallest built a sixth tallest building in all of Europe after Brexit.

Speaker 3:

Thank you very much for having me guys. Uh, so my name is Tomas Janu as you correctly pronounced. I am, uh, I'm from Czech Republic and I work for a company called Avast. So I'm head of localization and e-commerce, which I found many people find kind of how do, why do you connect localization and eCommerce? And here at Avast we kind of look at localization as, or sorry, e-commerce as part of the localization. So we do not just localize in terms of translating the content. We do localize the whole experience, including the pricing, the campaign, the offer, and most importantly the checkout and the payment methods.

Speaker 2:

Wonderful. And, and has that been an area that Avast has seen a lot of success in and they continue to invest in? Why, why put a person responsible for for that?

Speaker 3:

Well, there's definitely localizations uh, have been a key success to uh, to our business, especially at the beginning in 2002, uh, when we've already free antivirus, we are the only free antivirus on the market which was localized to England to do languages like French. Russian bought Digi Spanish. So if you are a French user you had no other option than to go with [inaudible]. And that kind of helped us to build out this massive user base. We have Indian on English market and later around 2010, 2011, we started to do realizing we have massive opportunities in those markets but the conversion is not that great as in the U S and we are asking why and what we can do better. And it kind of leads to to building the and localizing the, the eCommerce experience.

Speaker 2:

That's, that's great. You, you mentioned localization that it's beyond just the, the translation of the text. What, what is, what is your definition of localization?

Speaker 3:

So we kind of have a, we call it a goal, local levels. And, uh, really the, the, the, the first level of going local or expanding to the certain market is we do localize the, the website, the product. But we also had this, this e-commerce bit, which is we do localized pricing and it's not just we, uh, we offer local currency. We also, uh, kind of look at local market. What is the, what is the, what are the competitors or spice that w w how is the, what's the buyer capabilities on the market? So that's why if you look at, uh, Nordics, our products are much more expensive than if you look at South America for example. And a third. We are also important to look at the, what are the payment methods people, uh, people need to purchase there? Because you cannot really go global if it's just a online payment with credit cards or,

Speaker 2:

so obviously we're all very familiar with Avast and the story, but for our listeners, can you share a little bit about Avastin origin story? Uh, and, and how you've come to be one, frankly one of the fastest growing largest providers of security software. But it didn't always start that way.

Speaker 3:

Sure. So, uh, I was dates back to 1988 so we are on the market 30 plus years, uh, which is I think exciting. It was also a, a massive journey for us. So in 2001 we decided to go freemium. Before that we, we are, we're like the typical software company focused more on, on small, medium enterprises and, but then we are on in the job and the only option was to, to go freemium. So we decided to offer our products for free and we realized that we need, we really need to offer a good solution which will be comparable with, with other paid solutions because otherwise you won't be able to build the large user base, which you can later monetize. That's I think the key to free room that your free product needs to be as good as other parades so you can build a base. But then it's also makes you kind of the harder, how do, how do you make money out of it if the free product is so good, then how do you differentiate their premium version?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And anybody who's familiar with the econ or the security space will recognize how much of a disruptive force Avast has been in that industry. You guys have, you guys have grown leaps and bounds on the backs, frankly, of the, a really great strategy but also amazing local execution. Do you agree with that? Yeah,

Speaker 3:

I totally do. In fact, one of our third biggest markets now, Brazil, uh, was I guess 50 plus market 10 years ago. And really being able to grow it only by localizing the, the whole eCommerce experience and by allowing people to do purchase the products the way they are used to in Brazil. And we are now continuing in developing in for the market. So we see a lot of growth in, uh, in, in South America, in Argentina, uh, in Chila, uh, but also in other parts of the world, especially Southeast Asia, South Korea, Taiwan. Those are all very interesting markets.

Speaker 2:

So you mentioned freemium and you know, having a competitive product, uh, that people want to use, that's free. Uh, how do you, how do you go through the decisions of what to include as part of the freemium product versus what's in the premium product?

Speaker 3:

Right. It does. It's a very good question and it's kind of the constant challenge we have. It's sort of a balancing act too. You need to find the right balance between having a good product. But on the other hand, you also need, uh, the kind of good, build a good value in the premium product. So, so you have, so we can move people from free to pay them and surely

Speaker 2:

what, what, uh, and what is the, if you can share what, what's your conversion rate from free? What are you aiming for from a conversion rate simply

Speaker 3:

so, uh, as of today, it really depends on, uh, on the market. So there are markets where the, the free to paid conversion is 15, 20%, but there are some markets where it's a one person or even below 1% on average. I think with freemium Canada, uh, we are on five to 7%. It's of course also changing with longer. You are in the freemium business. The, the larger, uh, retention base you have, which kind of keeps, uh, keeps her new inc. Uh, but how will you do look at it is it also means we still have like 90 plus percent, which, uh, which we don't monetize. So how do we, how do we do that? That's sort of a key question which we are now trying to, trying to resolve. We are like understanding we won't be able to monetize 100% and move everyone to pay, but we think there is opportunity to grow further, especially if you look at some other, uh, free room, uh, businesses like Spotify. I think they're free to pay this around 30%.

Speaker 2:

Yup. How do you benchmark, so you had shared some country-specific conversion rates of a free to free to paid. How do you look X? Do you look externally at other companies and say like a S a S a a Spotify as a 30%? Or do you simply say, we're going to take how our business is converting and we're going to improve it regardless of benchmarks. How do you, what's the attitude at which you kind of solve the problem?

Speaker 3:

I think it's kind of combination. So we do look at, we are, we are looking at how do other free members this convert in the particle country, but as a global company, there are not many other players. We're running freemium globally. So it's kind of limited knowledge, uh, but the, what we are doing, we are kind of grouping the territories by sort of a similarities. So if you, for example, if I, I've spoken about South America and, and our success in Brazil or Argentina. So in, in Brazil and Argentina, our free debate is about five, right? But in, in, in Mexico for example, it's around zero. And based on we sort of our thinking, our also some local expertise, we think Mexico is, should be the same as Brazil. So we kind of set the target based on where we, where we get successful in, uh, in other markets.

Speaker 2:

How do you get more local knowledge still do you, do you have feet on the street in places like Brazil who are telling you about payment types, about, you know, all the different levers you can pull. How do, how do you get your insights?

Speaker 3:

So the, the first level, I think it's something everyone can do without having any kind of local understanding. And it's just go to Google and type top 10 online stores in Brazil. Go through the shopping experience and that will give you a lot of insights which you can collect in a essential, in a few hours with zero resources, right? So that's how kind of you get the, uh, the payment methods. How do people pay? What's the, what's the shopping experience? But if you want to localize further, you really need someone who deeply understands and, and lifts on the market who is, who is native, who knows the market, wherever, who knows how does it, how it should feel when you buy, what, what are sort of standards that something you, you kind of can't get yourself. That's really where you need the low, like through local expertise. And w w sorry, the way we are going to handling it is there are like two approaches. You can either open local office and build it up with the local staff, which of course will cost you some resources. But we are trying to uh, have the knowledge, uh, in Prague, in our headquarters. Uh, because we, we also find it important that the local people, the, we call them country managers, they have access to local resources in the headquarters so they can actually execute the strategy.

Speaker 2:

So how are, how are your teams organized?

Speaker 3:

So it's a, it's sort of a three pillars of the internally we call ourselves go local team. Uh, the first pillar is the market localization team. Those are the country managers who are responsible for the pricing, for setting the, the right campaigns or for the, for sort of a driving the, the country strategy. Second team is the eCommerce team and that's the team who is responsible for the checkout experience. And they work closely together, especially in terms of getting the, the new payments out and how does the, the checkout experience feels like. And third one is the is the content localization team and content. It's also something we are investing a lot of money and resources because we do not see localization as a, as a cost side. So if you talk with some of the, a lot of the businesses they always tend to look at localization as a, as a cost and they, which kind of organically you try to reduce it and keep it low. But we do see localization more as an investment because we know the better localization is the better the conversion is and therefore the more people we are able to to convert and also it's sort of investment in the future. So it's like we are building our user base in those markets for the future.

Speaker 2:

I'll tell you the thing I'm most impressed with with Avast is your kind of growth mindset. You guys, you guys have, you rally your resources around growing. And I go back to two things. The episode two of our podcast with Alaina talking about growth is a product growth as a strategy and you have to resource it accordingly. And that's really what Avast does. You don't say the words growth team, uh, but your LinkedIn profile says hockey stick growth lover. Uh, can you explain what that means and why you landed on that is your description?

Speaker 3:

Sure. So I guess that's part of the us culture. As you said. We have this growth mindset, so when we are setting targets we never thought we never think will be flat or will decline. We always think we'll be growing and we need to figure out how exactly it will be growing. And the hockey stick chart, you know, that's a, that's kind of my favorite. I love doing these things. Uh, and we had a couple of successes, uh, when you kind of have a, have a business in some region and suddenly there's this big jump, like kind of the conversion goes up by four or five times. That's what I love. And it's, what I tried to do is on many markets as possible.

Speaker 2:

How many times a year do you see that? Do you have that adrenaline rush you're describing?

Speaker 3:

Uh, it's still, uh, it's not that frequent. A few years ago. Of course the opportunity pool is getting lower and lower, but it's also about consistency, right? So I got a great, I got a question last week, Hugo, my manager sent me an email, why do we growing so fast in Taiwan? And I look at the Taiwan business from a longer perspective, like from 2014 and you can see here like in 2015, 16, the business started to grow. And that was the time when we really, when we did this kind of real localize, the uh, the campaigns, we introduced the, the, the pricing in diabetes dollars. We enabled the Taiwanese locale on, on digital, on digital arrival platform. And we kind of sent said the right basics for the growth. And the time, uh, many people didn't understand why we are doing it because Taiwan was such a small country. And the point is with consistency you can actually make it grow to a significant market. So the growth continued from 2015 and then in 2018 we launched subscriptions, which kind of accelerated the girl on the retention side. And now Taiwan is, it's not a big, but still not a big market, but it's a, it's a meaningful market for us and it, but few years ago it was almost nothing. So

Speaker 2:

that's not usually the question that employees get asked from their boss. Why is this going so well? I don't know that that comes up a lot. It's a great story

Speaker 3:

few times, but I think it's about understanding from, from my perspective, it's, it's about understanding the business. It doesn't matter whether it goes down or up unless you understand it. So you need to understand what, what happened and what drives the change.

Speaker 2:

So give us more of your origin story. How did you, how did you get to be the guy responsible for go local at Avast? Tell us, tell us kinda where you grew up and how you get kind of landed where you are today. Sure. So Brian

Speaker 3:

joining Avast, uh, I, I was working for Google and I was sort of a country specialist for the Czech Republic. So the, the, the interesting about Czech Republic is it used to be one of the five markets where Google was number one. So they were really trying to understand w w what is the local player doing differently and how does Google compare? And I was part of the team and it kind of helped me to understand the localization is important. And prior to that, uh, and I think it's not the my LinkedIn, but I actually, uh, run my own online shop, which I built on the Magento platform. I think I was the, it was the first magenta plot store in the checkerboard. It's like [inaudible] eight. So it was like, I think it was on beat that my gender. So I, uh, I get some experience also hands on experience in eCommerce.

Speaker 3:

And then I, I joined Avast, uh, which was, uh, was a great decision. Uh, I'm with Avast, uh, almost nine years. I joined Avast when I was still studying and finishing my thesis, so I actually could use, uh, some of the Evers data to finish the disease. I wrote about AB testing in the, in the global market. And, uh, the, I guess the, where I ended up in localization is because we, I as part of the sales team or eCommerce team and we saw the need of, of investing more in and focusing on the localization. And I was gonna, uh, I was the one who naturally got into it.

Speaker 2:

It was mentioned that you're a test and learn company. What types of techniques are you employing to make sure that you're validating the, the different changes that you're making. You mentioned Taiwan, Taiwan earlier, um, you know, and the things that you made over the years, how were you validating those types of things that they were actually additive to your, your growth strategy?

Speaker 3:

So we do AB test a lot. I think on a, on a weekly basis we are, we can be running like then different AB test at least. And in terms of localization, we kind of start with the, uh, uh, sometimes you, you need to AB test just to prove that the thing you are doing will actually bring a benefit. But sometimes you also don't need because you have experienced that this, this thing will work. And for example, with Taiwan, it's going to make sense just to go and enable the local currency. There is not much to test, right? Because it's either the USD or the local currency, what's better for the customers? Of course it's the local currency is better and then you can validate the impact, uh, by analyzing the data. But you actually don't need to test things which you believe and have strong experience. They won't hurt the business.

Speaker 2:

You mentioned earlier about you know, having different prices in different regions or different countries where those were those, the outcome of doing AB testing as well to find the threshold of converting from a freemium to a premium at this price point.

Speaker 3:

Right. Especially in terms of pricing, it's very vital to test it, especially if the local car, if the price in the local currency is significantly different from the price in the U S dollars. So for example, in, in, in Brazil we used to be, we used to be selling let's say for $30, but then when you localize the currency, it was suddenly $10. So people are like, how do we make more money if we are going to sell for three times cheaper? So that's something you better AB test to have some data also to prove that the thing was actually works because then the conversion jumps up more than more than three or four times.

Speaker 2:

Can you talk a little bit about, obviously subscriptions is a tremendous aspect of what you guys do and trying to acquire new customers. Is is always the Holy grail and obviously renewing them is the, is the lifeline of your business. I'm sure that you've had to make tough decisions between things that are single based transactions where there's no auto renewal versus the traditional subscription renewal on a credit card. Uh, some of those local payment types don't support those experiences. Can you talk about some of those trade offs and how you make them those, those have to be hard decisions

Speaker 3:

[inaudible] sure. Uh, as you said, we are heavily kind of subscription based company, which I I'm kind of really proud of because I think that's the, there's the future. But you are also right at some of the cash based payment methods in South America or Asia. They do not support author annual from kind of their, their essential way of how they work. And I guess the way how to test it is do you have, you have one, one flow where you, where you have authoring of a credit card and no cash payment and the other flow where you have still the credit card in auto-renewal plus the cash payment and then you kind of compare it. What's the, what's the, uh, what's the uplift on the conversion? But then you also need to include how to look in a few because of course the, there is tension rates on the, on the cash payment methods are much lower than on the subscription. So it's essentially it's about math and calculating what's the, what's the best business model.

Speaker 2:

And you guys do probably some pretty good predictive analytics around how many of those customers that pay with a cash based product will you actually get back through a manual renewal of sorts. And so you build all these models. Yeah, yeah, that's correct. Yeah. Yeah, we do it complex. So get your crystal ball out for a minute. And a, you've been at the company for nearly nine years, you've seen explosive growth. Uh, where does the next five years bring us? How, how does Avast continue to kind of disrupt the traditional market and how do you continue to grow at the same rate and pace you have?

Speaker 3:

Well, it's a, that's a, a key question and a very important one. Uh, the, the, the key thing is we will continue to grow and we, because that's sort of the Avast mindset. We have invested a lot in the, in the IOT protection. So we have launched a new product to protect your, your smart home. And we think that's, that's kinda, that's kind of the future of production. It's no longer like having an isolated antivirus on your, on your desktop, but it's about protecting kind of yourself or your whole family. And many people still kind of question it. Uh, whether this is really the future, but I'm strongly believe or it is, uh, the best example is, uh, when we are talking with, with our users, our customers, we tend to ask them, do you have a smart home? And usually like maybe 10, 20% say yes and the rest, no. But when you ask do you have a smart TV? It's like 80% nowadays, right? So the basically means you have a smart home. It's my TV because you have, uh, more than, uh, more connected devices to the internet and just your phone and desktop. And also people think it's not a, it's not a security risk for them because why would someone bother with taking their coffee machine and instead of espresso making them a latte or something

Speaker 2:

cruel Trek everybody decaf.

Speaker 3:

But it's about, uh, those, those, uh, connected devices. They have very low security levels because companies who are creating them, they do not have security, uh, security expertise and they really rushing to get them to the market as fast as possible. There is also no alternative which would kind of guide the makers how to make them secure. There are no regulations, which means, uh, we are having a lot of connected devices which are early unsecured and then what it takes to get through the whole network. It's just one unsecured device in your network. So the hackers are not using the, uh, the devices to uh, do scrap video or a coffee machine. They are using it to, to get to your, do your homework work or to connect to all of the devices and then use it as a part of the sort of big botnet attacks and things like that.

Speaker 2:

How do like

Speaker 3:

mobile where people have come in conditioned for free apps, 99 cent apps. You guys are a free product traditionally. So you have a bit of a leg up on, on some of your competitors in this regard. Uh, how do you monetize mobile I guess is the ultimate question. So that's a, I think like essential question main companies are uh, are trying to resolve because as you said, many people are using mobile apps. Uh, there are many companies developing a pallet, but not many mobile companies are actually successful. Right? So the way we are doing it is compared to our disk, the product which is solely, uh, kind of focused on, on upselling and cross selling and mobile. We do also have, uh, we are using indirect monetization. So we do display third party ads. For example, when you finish the scan, you are on the free version. We will display, uh, an ad for, uh, from the third party. So that's kind of what it's sort of a, again, balancing act between upselling, cross selling, and also some indirect monetization.

Speaker 2:

Obviously Brexit is looming and which decision gets made. Some people have an opinion on, some don't for Avast. Do you guys get in a room and start talking about scenarios and planning and does it have an implication on your business?

Speaker 3:

Okay. Uh, well of course it's a, it's a worry, but also it's I guess less of very, since we are having partners like digital river who are essentially, uh, the merchant and seller for records. So it's, it's kind of also, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's a risk for us, but we are happy that we are not alone in that

Speaker 2:

in terms of partnerships and, and I want you to pre anything but, but how does, how does Avast think about strategic partnerships on trying to go to market with things like, to, to penetrate the IOT market or to get inside of, you know, OEM builds on mobile devices. Is there anything that you guys are doing that are, you're trying to test and learn that you're having any success with?

Speaker 3:

Yes, that's a good question compared to, uh, because with the IOT is obviously a physical product, even though we are positioning as a, as a subscription or service, it's a, it's still a physical product which you, uh, which you need to distribute. And we realized it's not that easy as going to our website to download the free product and install it in, uh, in two minutes. Right. So we are kind of going both ways. Uh, first one is we want to distribute it through our existing user base, but also we are going through the partners and channel side. So we have now partnership with winter in Italy, uh, which is the, a large local ISP and we will go this direction in the future as well. So there are, there will be a couple more partnerships in the future

Speaker 2:

is retail traditional box and mortar retail in the cards for an Avast, uh, with your physical product.

Speaker 3:

Uh, in some countries, uh, in there, there are still countries where Dell is, uh, is especially from the branding perspective. Uh, we are in retail in North America, uh, and uh, in Japan and in Japan. It's really a, or we are going to be in, in, in retail, in Japan. And it's about, uh, the branding perspective. We are, we do not expect much of a business from retail, but it's more about, you know, showing we are here, consider us

Speaker 2:

very important in some cultures to demonstrate that presence more so than what you get for returns. But I agree with you. How do you choose which products are going to be sold in which countries and through which channels? [inaudible]

Speaker 3:

um, so there are countries, there are differences in what people are looking for in certain countries. For example, in Germany people really like the, uh, the, the, the optimization too. So they like the, the adults more than in other countries where they like more the VPN products or they are concerned about their privacy. So it's about kind of understanding what the, what's the, what's the local mindset, what are people are up to and then optimizing the, uh, the portfolio and the offerings. We globally we do offer the same products everywhere. It would may differ is, uh, kind of the, the, the frequency or the, uh, the strength of or the order, how we are offering it to, to the local audience.

Speaker 2:

When you think about the segments of customers you serve, I, I once had a room full of interns. Uh, I was in London and I asked them a question, uh, around traditional security providers and I said, put your hand up if you have any of these, these, these solutions. And it was some of your competitors. And eventually I got to Avast and the, the room's hands all went up. It was all a bunch of students. And, uh, it was very clear to me in that moment that you guys had done a really good job, uh, kind of segmenting or targeting customers that were students. I don't know. Is that intentional? Is the byproduct of a freemium strategy. Can you talk about some of your segmentation as to where you put your importance on acquiring new customers?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so as you said, like, uh, uh, the every customer and every user is super important to us. But with, uh, with the younger, younger audience, uh, it's, we see them as the future buyers, right? So w every free user is, has the same value, but even though it's free, and we do not make any money, not today, but we still know that a free user may recommend the product to, uh, to, to get another reviews user, which we may later monetize. And also the three years that we may monetize in a few years if he will stick with a brand. So we are, we kind of don't in terms of the user base and user focus, we don't differentiate who do we focus too because our products are really for for everyone. So what, what advice

Speaker 2:

do you have for people that are uh, trying to build out these growth minded teams? [inaudible]

Speaker 3:

well first let's start with the analysis. So it's before you started building the team, you need to understand what are the markets you are going to expand. And we look at expansion from kind of two perspective. One is driven organically, which means there is already some user base in this market and we need to better localize to monetize it. And the second one is we don't have a user base. Our brand is unknown but we think the market opportunity is huge and therefore we are going to invest to build the user base. So by starting this analysis that should kind of answer what, what are the key markets where really what you want to localize better. And this analysis is like a should be really kind of detailed. You need to spend a lot of time on, on understanding the, the, the, the customer behaviors, but also on analyzing the competitors and so on. So it's big, the right markets and then, uh, start, uh, you can actually start small by kind of adding one or two counter managers per, per region and then expand with the time. So those, there are like a certain levels, uh, and you can literally start by having one person they can care of the, of the market and expand in, in, in, in the future when the market grows bigger.

Speaker 2:

So that's very interesting. You know, shifting gears a little bit, we are all consumers of eCommerce in our daily lives, uh, outside of what we do for work. I'd love to hear from you, uh, who you hold up as a really great online shopping experience besides Avast and why?

Speaker 3:

That's a good question then. I was thinking of about it a lot. Uh, I don't think there is, there is a great user experience online today still. When I buy online, I still need to somehow take out the credit card or whatever payment I, I choose to. And still is a, it's not going to be an ant, right? It's still, you need to select the product, put it to your shopping cart, go for the checkout. It's still a process. And which, but essentially what I want, I want the product. Why do I need to go through these steps? So to me today, there isn't still not perfect shipping experience. I'm like, there's still a lot of way to go. We are moving there, but it will take a few years.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for being so open and honest with us. Uh, obviously very impressed how you organized and execute growth as a strategy. And I think the lessons you've shared with us around how you go more local and how you get excited about hockey stick growth is, uh, something we can all learn a lot from. So thank you very much for participating in our podcast. Thank you very much for having me.